Occultism for the Meak.

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New Tradition > New Tradition Discussion Area > History Revision > Occultism for the Meak.

Author	Topic : Occultism for the Meak.
Wisenhimer Member	posted On 5/29/2007 It seems to me that in my life time that a series of books have been releast on the Masonic Lodge and Occultism. Just in time to recrute new members for the Masonic Lodge when membership is record low. if it is involved in any bloodline or conspiricy sects working to control the world is a Despotic way. If they are the keepers of this sacrad knowledge and it suppose to be secret then why are they seemingly bare with me here tring to initiate us with books on such matters. Notice the whole Da Vinci code exsploded just after a series of simeler books are released with less information than the next? Then soon to follow all these authors that are self proclaimed Occultists and run in the same circles. Seems as though they release more and more tid bits of information exotericly slowly and methodicly. It seems planned to get us hooked and consumed in this stuff. GNoing what I know; I remember when I first started reading the occult it was a Little book called the Holy Bible and what have I learnerd from the Holy Bible and it sub texts called Occult philosophy and all the Masonic esoteric philosphy and theorys with out base on God and Faith and Blessings, Grace and Love and weird words like freedom and Liberty. Not a Fucken Thing worth wild in my life have I learned from all this chasing after the wind online and my nose in books, it like tinkering with gadgets it just somthin to do to occupy our moments when we are not working to earn money nothing more. Why dont we just knit or collect antiques or collect dust in front of the tube; its all the same. "Chasing after the wind" Also it ridlded in childrens books and Movies. Not so hidden now days if really ever at all. And by design. This stuff consumes some folks, Like me You dont gotta eat out the menstrum and ejackulant of a 12 year old red headed girl or boy to get transendance or have a royal Crest and a geneolgy that goes back to imaginary and spectacular magiical times. You dont gotta be initiated over many years of toil. Have red hair to get the feeling of timelessness and the transendance of "Kundaline" Contrary to Nicholis De Veres books. His books are de programming tools that can brain wash ignorant people with his master ability in corrolations and coefficiants to acheive "Enlightenment" you dont have to tithe to a Church or local Lodge or even be Bisexual. You just have to get away from it all. These teachings was once taught in Universities for the Super Wealthy in a chamber (cave) only in times before time (Clocks) no time needded to be transended and drugs to dream with are every place all over the earth still today in the wild. Why the need for an awakening before the whoole was being pulled over any ones eyes? What was the poulation in cities let alone in the back woods when this stuf was first being written 400 years ago? How many graduated from the University back then even? Few compare to the folk population I bet. More and more I see those who claim to be the AntiChrist and Satan or Jesus H Christ himself; they say that they posses the ability to do this or that. Perhaps some folks are geneticly more intuitive and can naturaly transend the mundane and others dont have it and many more simply cant if they wanted to. They ahve lost the abilty perhaps, but in most it lays dormant. But if a man does return geneticly like the man it wont be any anomolie, just genetic repeats and there would be so many moore than one repeat if we come from the boosum of Mary and are sired by Jesus. Look around carfully where ever you go. Carfully. We always meet some one that reminds us of some one else and get ye old dajavu effect. because we all come from the same root cause and share those genetic characters. Look around and notice. Just a bunch of repeats. People are just people no matter what titles they bestow on oneanother. We all are a buckett of worms play acting as meat puppets would. We all come from the same root cause of Human exsistance; all this sectular activity has run its coarse as we dont have to behave like animals any more we are not animals that cannot control ourself from over eating, masterbation. Addictions, and other "disorders". We can behave differantly than we are exspected to. There are those who are incapable of change. Send em to Siberia or the Mountains, givem enough rope to hang them self as the vulture pecks out thier liver everday. The Trick of the Occult is is is a paradox and yes dualistic, they cover the trax well. One thing is true if you read the Bible to search for truth and dont have dogma to guide you it is "a Consuming Fire" as is all occult materials mythology and so forth. Details Details Details the first Alchemist had who to hide what from? Peasants and uneducated farmers. Codes for what? why speak in codes and write in codes when no body but your fellows can read any dam way? Da Vinci worked for the Church and new what he was doing hidding truth right in front of people so they cant tell what going on in front of them. But who looked at these paintings and writings of Da Vinci n the 1500s? Peasants? Slaves? Who even spoke language any where near proper with out an education? Let alone decipher paintings and Glyphs. Well it looks like the poor folks need a negative preaching with the "possitive" message to counter balance the teaching of the KKK. How many people do you know that has actually read the Bible or Koran or any Holy book they stand on? The KKK is the poor mans Masonic Lodge Fact is Poor people dont know about any of this shit today how in the hell they gonna know about it with out reading even 100 years ago, No time to read when you have to work 12 or 16 hrs a day. Fact is the Flaver hasnt changed over the years of the occult but who is reading has. Stuff written is made to be read; its self exspresion. Why be afraid some illiterate person may find out complex concepts like the oric Egg or how to make color dies. Wow how did you build that temple with such skill ask the gardner? Its a trade secret answers the Mason. Well Ive got a Green thumb sys the Gardner and the fude is on. So saying its a secret is like Jesus in the Bible telling folks he healed not to tell any one. Curiosity killed the cat. Or ask some one to keep a box for you and keep it secret and dont look insde. So what hap? They look inside and tell their friend not to tell the secret that they just stold. What fear what guilt and the message travels fast in the poor village By design. Occultism is a Tool for theocrocy and absolute control of the mass and perpetuates the eventual end of itself and has a definate coarse of action. This is your coming apocalyps, a change or order to transition a change under the guise of Altruism. Oh its coming and been planned since the foundation( the bible) of the this current civilization. The Bible and its related sub texts of Myth is the First cause and root that needs to be exstracted or create more sects of Religiosity like the New age Movment and Bahi and willi nille. This stuff was all written to be read by who so ever seeks it. Yes to consume the wanton and enlighten few. distractions for the nay sayers and Rabble Rousers. No need to transend time befor the invention of Clocks and slave labor. The traditions of the occult traditions in familys are meerly house hold meds and folk science passed down even amoung the poorist it trickled down from the top of the pyramid by design ( See hyrogliphs as propaganda or to ward of intruders). The Junk Yard dog with 2 heads is totaly possible as a gaurd dog to hades (the tombs of the Funeral Rite) Its all this information that gets in the way of our true self. Cant transend time? This is all you need to do this information is free by the way passit on if you wish How to acheive Emlightenment by Trade Mark: 1. Throw your clocks away 2. Stopp watching TV for at least 12 months and reading media reports politics and Forums on the internet. Throw your calender away and stop celabrating any dat differant than the other 3. spend the time you used to spend watchin TV Meditating (pray for Wisdom and the knowlede of who/whatgod is; "ask and you shall recieve") in a wooded area as much as possible or just move to a shack in Montana. Dont get Violant that too shall pass. 2. Cleans your system of, meds, crap junk food and stay sober for that 12 months 3 Gain self control over your sex organs and thought patters and dreams as much as possible (Tame the Beast within) 4. Quit your job and become self employed and change all "habbits" daily concentrating on new ideas as they come to you. Change the location that you live and meet new eclectic races and religions. 5. Exept what you learn from this exsperiance even that it mite be contrary to popular oppinion. 6. Praxis and preach the Gospell that the Kingdom is here and within. Exposing Hypocrites and awakening your fellow human to the Realities that be. Blossem over time in wisdom and understanding. 7. Do what ever you will but harm non. You are free of Karma in the Now. PS and remember to practice the craft of non complacentcy in the rite of the absolute NOW. Bending not to ritual, time and desire. "A man with many possesions is much possed" Kundalini may also be found by using drugs of variouse types. I recamend using a scribe and sober friend to watch over and protect you in both process's above. I will de-program any man or woman free of charge. But I get your soul when you die of coarse. "Every thing is permissable but not every thing is benaficial" Beware : Using your whole brain is a times troublsome. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_coefficient Any thoughts? Posts: \| \| Directory :
gf Member	posted On 5/17/2007 Ok, as hard as it is to read what you are saying, I will make my best guess and say that your point is "that occultism is another tool to deprive us of our spiritual freedom"...AND I AGREE 100%!! Its all a ploy to weaken our spiritual strength and leave us more succeptable to control(or "possession") and breakdown. We are tantalized and baited with "higher knowedge" and "the secret of magic or occult wisdom". These simpletons think they are being "empowered" yet they dont realize they are mindless sheep being controlled to do the dirty work of the truly evil. These victims need to get back to the basics and simply do two things: 1.Believe in God (love) 2.Have faith(hope) There you go Wisenhimer. The answers to all your questions in 2 easy steps. Of course we all know this simple tactic will go misunderstood by the so-called "intellects" of our forum. It will most likely get me deleted/or editted/ or banned as we have seen here by the people who dissagree or cant grasp simple logic (Melamed or the owners here please wake up and do something!!)... Oh well, my spirit does not give up. Posts: \| \| Directory :
anton Member	posted On 5/17/2007 gf, it does not seem to have occurred to you that there is any other mode of functioning possible to people than sheer belief. I am here to tell you that there is. Belief is incapable of reason whenever something contradicts the worldview of the believer. It can only rationalize, minimize, deny or change the subject. This has nothing to do with whether healthy beliefs are necessary for a healthy person. They are. It has everything to do with beliefs running riot, hijacking the mentality of the believer, and leading him to attack, mock and dismiss people who do not believe as he does. The believer must always and in everything be "right." This is one of his blind spots. In order to be "right," he needs the agreement of others around him. When he does not get this, he throws a tantrum, attacking others as (pick one or several) stupid, gullible, naive, ignorant, deluded, evil. &c. Alternately, he has to mock them. Anything to keep his mind closed. Once you understand his language, this is the believer's way of saying "he does not agree with me." Believers approach every situation as a recruiting opportunity. This is not, to them, a matter of presenting basic information and allowing people to make up their own minds. Others must be gathered into the belief fold, or driven away into the outer darkness. Every situation becomes an emotional soap opera and a political contest in which the believer must continually appear as the right man forthe job of leading the herd. Information, to the believer, is "true" ("good") if it advances his agenda, and "false" if it undermines it or calls it into question. To the believer, the objective quality of the source means nothing -- whether or not it supports his position means everything. This is the criterion by which he evaluates information. All people believe something. That Erol or Ron or whoever believe something does not reduce them to one common level with you, in which "no one has room to talk." The problem comes with centering in sheer belief and preaching it ad nauseam. No one with any awareness of his surroundings can look around him at the situation the world finds itself in, in which feudalism is quickly being established here, the rule of law is replaced with rule by the lawmakers, naked piracy, information suppression and sheer lies are the instruments of state policy and the like, and go around preaching (another believer characteristic) that everything would be just fine if people would only stop being "negative" (i.e., stop threatening his sense of wellbeing). At this point, personal belief wanders over the edge into mental illness. Whether the political-economic OR the historical aspect of the enterprise is foremost at the moment, this is not really a social club where people come for personal validation and deliver sermons to an appreciative audience. There does come a point at which allowing someone to demonstrate, again and again, the defects of thought being pointed-out elsewhere at the same time has some value. I.e., people read something like "the mindset" and then have the opportunity of seeing it in action. After a while though, such displays become redundant. This is the way anton sees the matter. If people here wanted you to be their leader, they would have proclamed you "leader" long before. The fact of the matter is, nobody here is playing the Leader Game but you. Be somebody else's leader. Run your campaign somewhere else. If you want to offer what seem to you to be insights, fine. But stop trying to market them as the only "truth" that anyone reasonable could agree with and anyone who doesn't support you as some kind of idiot. Posts: \| \| Directory :
Wisenhimer Member	posted On 5/17/2007 Walk soft and carry a big stick. No compete is my modow, Ya ever notice when some one new studant comes along out spoken and how the leaders (Moderators and Professors) get themselves all protective of their possisions and if they lost that possion they them self would be lost? As if any body really wanted to compete or make power plays to gain attention. I read through your posts anton. Though I agree with your ideas I think you are a egoist as well as the rest of em. This forum is very small but its no differant than any other forums in that the way people behave. We got the leader anton who hates his job and this forum and gf who is here for God knows why and Erol just killing time at work and Ron who want to be every bodys DaD and the isolated reader who gets off reading forum soap operas. Moderatores all suffer from What I call "Dramatic Post Disorder" If you not gonna coment to me anton they why you read my posts? Posts: \| \| Directory :
Ron Member	posted On 5/17/2007 A very "wise" post! Posts: \| \| Directory :
anton Member	posted On 5/17/2007 Good one, Wiise. I did respond to one of yours today, Keep telling it like it is : ) Posts: \| \| Directory :
Erol Member	posted On 5/17/2007 Wise, LOL at your comments, but seriously, these are real issues. Do you think in order for there to be peace, that we should all pretend everything posted is adequate and deeply researched? I mean after all, sin't there an obligation for standards in ones quality of information as a duty to inform the readers and being in alliance of the objective of NEW TRADITION? Frankly, I don't see what's so egotistical about trying to uphold a higher standard in quality reporting. If this forum is going to ve everything but what NEW TRADITION Stands for, then why should the Fomenko staff even pay for this forum to stay alive? They provide this forum for us and if they wanted to be assholes, they could've withdrawn this costly forum if they chose to. I think everyone here should be thankful its even up and running. The core of the issue is I think is about addressing the issue of why would anyone wish to oppose New Tradition's mission statements? Nobody seems to posting their anti-thesis in an educated manner as to why. The whole time I've been here wuch was since late summer 2006, I have never seen my critics once generate an essay that would produce a thought provoking accurate reason why we must abandon the mission statements and purpose as well as Topic relativity that NEW TRADITION Suggests. Wise, wouldn't you think that's a fair request on Anton's and my part rather than just calling everyone an egotist as you titled it? Do you stand softly about these issues or do you see it in gf's eyes as all Wonderland fun and toys for you? This is a serious forum about serious issues of the current world affairs as well as the way to attain a better today and tomorrow is to understand our past much much better than we do now. Fomenko doesn't explore the past simply because we have countless facts wrong of the past. He explores them even more so because of how much we've drifted and the effect it has taken upon our world TODAY. Nobody would ever quote George Orwell, except with one agenda and notion in mind. Fomenko knows something is deeply wrong which has turned into a distorted social fabric of conflict today. The Fomenko group recognizes this too and this is why the MISSION STATEMENT expands on looking into this dilemma. Anyone with common sense would recognize this about the purpose and drive of the Fomenko groups and notice I said anyone with "common sense". Surely, everyone outside myself and anton haven't lost sight of this. Have you all? Does anyone know why they're here? Is it to bring their own agenda, or is it to support a NEW TRADITION Agenda? That's the real question. This isn't a forum of shootin' the shit and how's your dog, yadda, yadda, yadda and holocaust denial and we're buddies because we share common lack of knowledge.Yeah, Let's all be great friends and be internet pen pals sharing a common ignorance. Is that what you think this forum is about? One would be gravely mistaken to have thought this. I would deeply compliment anyone with a different point of view to educationally provide the purpose and value of that point of view, especially when it's offensive to millions dying. Enlighten me on the purpose of the rude positions. I have still yet to hear an educated rebuttle for "our" (Anton's or mine) stance. Also Wise, its a good thing you aren't present when law makes exchange difference. If they were any more timid or afraid of a difference of opinion and not willing to debate it, many solutions we take for granted to keep our nation going from crisis to crisis, problem to solution would've never happened. There is nothingw rong with being stern when the time calls about these issues. One really can't sit on the fence with serious and perplexing issues that face our times or you would stand for nothing really. Think about it. You have Ron who practically copy's the quote of "Kill'em all before they get us and yet gf calls us and not Ron paranoid. Then you have gf who is under the notion to never question anything and fiercely rebukes those who do. This makes me wonder why he calls us paranoid when he responds in a paranoid fashion himself of eager defensiveness on social and humanitarian issues as Ron does too. Surely wise, you aren't content with that are you? Erol Posts: \| \| Directory :
Ron Member	posted On 5/17/2007 "Does anyone know why they're here? Is it to bring their own agenda, or is it to support a NEW TRADITION Agenda? That's the real question." I seem to support a NEW TRADITION AGENDA, by doing what has been done at the site almost from day one. That is, I have read the books, and the purpose of the site, and most of it seems to speak about discussing the theory of Fomenko, and that of this sites own book! And that I have done, religiously! I do recognize that there exists a "hidden" or maybe not "hidden" agenda, that is willing to disucss much of the falicies of modern times and the so called histories that have been written even during my lifetime. But, guess what, I do not want to discuss these items? Do you really have a big frigging problem with that? I just cannot really figure out just what big frigging problem you have period? So, why don't you become the "bigger man" with gf and me? Lay off, shut up and don't beguile us into your schemes? Leave us the frig alone! Find someone else to play with? We really do not need you! You can blather on and on for ever! And anton can sometimes agree with you, but not me! At least about political positions. You are always welcome to post your thoughts whether agreeable or in dissent, when I speak about ancient history! But it is only the continued mention of my name as you post your nasty retorts to any comment made by gf or me that causes more trouble. Ron Posts: \| \| Directory :
anton Member	posted On 5/17/2007 Ronman -- before anyone can improve something, he has to know and understand two things : what it is that's wrong, and how the whole thing works. If recognition (to say nothing of analysis) of either is curtailed or ruled off-limits, there is no point to anything here except chronological revision (and, I guess, the ongoing soap opera). Posts: \| \| Directory :
gf Member	posted On 5/18/2007 *sigh I am going to translate this entire thread for the normal folk that had the unfortunate luck of stumbling across it: I concluded that Wisenhimers point was that "Occultism is another tool/ploy to weaken our spiritual strength". I do not know if I was correct in this assessment because not only was it hard to grasp what Wisenhimer was saying, but he didnt respond to me asking him if I understood him. Then it seems Anton (as usual) was bothered by me singling out Erol for his (obvious) questionable "new age" beliefs (although I do like Antons "relative" mindset). I guess we can all see that we shouldnt dare ever question ANYONES beliefs or opinions here (especially opinions from Erol like Einstein and Newton are wrong, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are evil, theres no possible way humans have existed on other planets besides Earth, the invented substance called "orgone" can anti-age us and empower us, and the United States is the epitome of evil....). It seems having our own personal opinions or rebuttals here bothers Anton. Wisenhimer was correct in seeing the hipocracy on this board although I dont understand why he does not see that I myself merely come here on a daily basis and give my honest and best opinions (oh and surprise, I am here to support Fomenko- a rare topic here). I dont think Wisenhimer handles criticism too well. Ron (again as usual) seems to be the only person speaking English on this forum on a daily basis. Ron, I really, really, really, hope one day Erol will finally listen to your constructive advice because 7 months of his "attitude" has sent the quality of this "intellectual" forum into a warp-speed nose dive. I will end this post with me asking Wisenhimer again, "Did I understand your first post correctly?" Posts: \| \| Directory :
Wisenhimer Member	posted On 5/18/2007 No as I have said before I do in fact struggle with rejection since my motive to me are pure and honest. This is my defect of character to notice when people just believe with out action and when I mention such things folks get all seriouse and attach the mess-anger and cant critique the message (adhomin). gf, yes and No. I include the Bible, Septuagent and Apochyphia as occultism as well as all Mythology found in Qumrons Gnostic writtings. These writtings are nothing but NOISE that distorts the Silance of Being. Nothing is hidden just cause its called hidden. Its called hidden so we will seek it when the Bible isnt cutting and we realise sub consciously or consciously that it dont jive with reality. So insted of our search for God ending; it is neverending for the heart felt seeker. I am proposing ending that search for God once and For all as a problem solving agent for social problems. I may not be worhty of your alls academic life time persuit of WIND but I am worthy of a solution as re-dick- you-Less it may sound. But it will work. The end of the esoteric God is : E=MCr as Cosmology and Social Reality Fact: We dont realy know where we come from We dont know/how why we are here We dont know where we are going "God grant me the serinity to exept the things that I can not change, the courage to change the things I can; and the wisdom to know the differance" this is called the serinity Prayer. Notice "Grant me serinity to exept the things I can not change" We cant change the facts as stated above. No one can! Notice "the wisdom to know the differance" Notice "The courage to change the things I can". I know what can be changed and what cant be changed. Alls I am sayen is Do you have the wisdom to know the differance between the two in this axiom? If so serinity shall follow. who has such serinity here? If you have no serinity then you really dont GNOW the Differance. We all share the HUMAN CONDITION of conditioning but I am offering a cure once and for all in a concept that works for all including every body. This is exoteric and free remady for what ails you. Not a snake oil and promise of a Savior or promised land. I offer the realization of the Now, Living water. I am not intersetd in Positions of worldly seats and praise. Just making available a new concept to live by for the Meak. sorry I make no applogy for challenging your possition of just chit chat and not put ideas into action. I would support any action with the NT. But if they/we dont act together soon I will look else where for partners in Praxis as I am still alone. I exspect absolute rejection and that to shall pass. I am a smart alac with a motive. To be heard and for those who hear me to wake up and smell the Rose's. Im not looking for followers but I do seek friends. How childish of me to think I would find some hear. Posts: \| \| Directory :
gf Member	posted On 5/18/2007 I'm not sure how you find Einsteins Theory of Relativity (E=mc(squared)) to be a replacement for love/faith/hope... but I agree with what you say overall hahaha. I dont feel that holy books that are intended to portray moralistic value (with subtle clues to enlightenment for those who know what to look for) as being a hinderence to a good spiritual life. When you mentioned the Masons and any other secret society, well, I agree there are ulterior motives to thier cause. Too many today are looking for "magic" or "super powers". These kind of things go against all that is the natural god. Posts: \| \| Directory :
Erol Member	posted On 5/18/2007 gf, Your are trying to be a jerk aren't you? Why in the bloddy hell do you keep printing fake and inaccurate crap. You inability to recollect what's posted in the most annoying event here to me. I never said the U.S. is the Epitome of evil. You post the bulk of the NEW AGE and you say I have questionable NEW AGE. How would you know if what I present is questionable when you run from the verification and evidence process? You lose your right to say that if you run from the empirical evidence. We all saw it. Exeriments are not your idea of testing evidence and so you disqualify yourself in being taken seriously when you post such nonsense. Remember, we all witnessed you dodge real tests of verification. Belief no humans on other planets? I never said that either. I SAID for the trillionth time that life is possible on other planets in various forms, I just don't buy into the UFO-SPACECRAFT-ABDUCTION DRAMA DOGMA like you do. If humans exist, then so be it. It has nothing to do with the SCI-FI Boloney being reported here that you buy into and try to ass off as history. This means I don't think there is contact in in the literal sense or that some kind of Space Fleet is waiting for us, etc. You purposely keep messing with my statements and you are being a jerk about it in doing that. You know what you're doing and how you're doing it. It's bull shit gf, utter bull shit. I told you the role the U.S. played in servitude to the CROWN TEMPLE and that this CROWN TEMPLE is in servitude to the VATICAN. Your distorted posts are just that. DISTORTED! Next time you misquote that crap for the trillionth time, I will type again as I have before NO RESPONSE in response to errors or lies you post about me. gf, really the only drama is the drama you cause. We here on the other (whether this includes or excludes Ron) are up to serious things. Erol Posts: \| \| Directory :
anton Member	posted On 5/18/2007 Wise : You are certanly welcome here. You see things from a different angle than the standard one -- including some things people usually don't see. But IMHO, you're currently on a collision course with what's available (not possible, available) to human nature, IMO. People are deeply unhappy and need help. But they don't WANT help. They want to be happy. They demand it. And if recognising what's happening around them gets in the way of this, then so much the worse for reality. You've seen that often enough here. If you're hoping that everyone here (or anywhere) will resonate with you and interpreting this not happening as "rejection," you're demanding milk from a potato. It doesn't work because it can't. Do what you can do. And if that's only a little here and there, at least it's something. My two-cents' worth. Posts: \| \| Directory :
Wisenhimer Member	posted On 5/19/2007 Ive been co-lide-ing with human nature my whole life. Im not looking for resonation but only to find the few the 1%. If you feel as though you are a onePercecter then what gives? What are you protecting. There are many ways to see the world and in turn respond to it. But If I was selling land on the moon every body wants on board. Clearly most love to be tricked and decieved; it validates thier own actions of tricking and devceving others to survive. So believe me anton I have crashed many times and will continue to crash with reality. Its who I am geneticly. The American Indians would tell it like "He speaks for/with his ancestors" Responce-Ability Recall Joanah in the Bible as he ran from the word of God that told him to to to go to Ninavah and tell the occupants of thier "Sin"? Recall he is on a boat laying down and depresed and sick as he ran from the good he knew he ought to do? Pretty soon all the occupants on the boat realized Joanah was the one causing the problems with the rough sea's and threwww him over board only to be swallowed by a large Fish. Master the Fish or the Fish will master you, could be one interpitation. Pissing in the wind seems to fit nicly as well. But most important is that Joanah did go and in deed SAVE the Ninavites from certain destruction, perhaps your ancestors where like the Ninavites and needed awakend to thier own demise; if change did not occure. Will you be some ones ancestor anton? Are you ever depressed? I know I want my desendants to inherit a worthy Kingdom. Ability-to-Respond Posts: \| \| Directory :
gf Member	posted On 5/19/2007 Believe in god and have faith and all will be fine. Posts: \| \| Directory :
Wisenhimer Member	posted On 5/21/2007 gf said: "Believe in god and have faith and all will be fine" Exactly what the Ninavites where saying before Joanah came to town! Posts: \| \| Directory :
Wisenhimer Member	posted On 5/21/2007 The Beer Ministry By TIM TOWNSEND of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch Published Sunday, March 11, 2007 MAPLEWOOD - In a back room at Schlafly Bottleworks in Maplewood, about 50 people gathered on a recent Wednesday night to talk rock вЂ™nвЂ™ roll. Why are Bob Marley and Kurt Cobain considered by some to be messiahs? When did rock music lose its edge and become another product manufactured and marketed by huge conglomerates such as Viacom? It was a conversation perfectly suited to the setting. Beer-stained wooden tables and the smell of hops complemented a free-flowing, spirited debate among hip young people in scruffy beards and T-shirts. In 2007, this is church. Theology at the Bottleworks is run by a wildly successful congregation of young St. Louisans called The Journey. The Schlafly program is part of the churchвЂ™s outreach ministry. And it works. Every month, dozens show up at the brewpub to drink beer and talk about issues ranging from racism in St. Louis to modern-art controversies to the debate about embryonic stem cell research. First-timers are invited to check out the church on Sunday, and Journey leaders say many have. Theology at the Bottleworks is just one of The JourneyвЂ™s ministries, but it has helped the church grow from 30 members in late 2002 to 1,300 today. The Rev. Darrin Patrick, The JourneyвЂ™s founder and lead pastor, said its nontraditional approach is aimed at those who are not likely to attend church. "We want to go where people are," he said. "We donвЂ™t expect them to come to us." For nearly two years, the beer ministry has brought new members to the church. Now itвЂ™s being called unbiblical. The Journey defines itself as an interdenominational church, but it has a working relationship with the Missouri Baptist Convention. That confederation of Baptist churches is the state arm of the largest Protestant denomination in the country, the theologically and socially conservative Southern Baptist Convention. In 2005, The Journey borrowed $200,000 from the Baptist organization to help buy and renovate a former Catholic church in St. Louis. In December, Baptist leaders began questioning the churchвЂ™s methods of attracting worshippers, specifically its use of alcohol. At last yearвЂ™s annual meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention, members overwhelmingly reaffirmed their traditional stance on alcohol by passing a resolution that expressed "our total opposition to the manufacturing, advertising, distributing and consuming of alcoholic beverages." Baptists within the denomination who oppose such a strict view of alcohol use argue that the Southern Baptist position is based on denominational tradition, not Scripture. The Journey is part of what sociologists of religion call the emerging church movement. "Emerging congregations offer a radically different style of worship that appeals to certain kinds of young folks," said Scott Thumma of the Hartford Institute for Religion Research. The Rev. Bill Edwards, chairman of the Missouri Baptist ConventionвЂ™s church planting subcommittee, said he had received a number of calls from Missouri Baptists complaining about The JourneyвЂ™s Web site, some pages of which depict or suggest drinking beer and wine. Last month, the organizationвЂ™s executive board formed a committee to investigate The Journey and assess the Missouri Baptist ConventionвЂ™s position on the emerging church movement. Kerry Messer, a member of the Missouri Baptist ConventionвЂ™s executive board, said that he had attended The JourneyвЂ™s December Theology at the Bottleworks program and that what he had seen worried him. "Beer being served as part of a church presentation sends mixed messages to the community and causes confusion," Messer said. "Had we known about this before the loan was approved, I would havey spoken out against a financial relationship being established." The Journey, he said, represents "a movement that compromises the positions, beliefs and doctrines of the Baptist church in order to attract people to theirs." At the Missouri Baptist ConventionвЂ™s annual meeting in October, the organization had a very different take on The Journey. Executive director, the Rev. David Clippard, singled out the church in front of 1,200 Baptist leaders as an ideal model. Clippard noted The JourneyвЂ™s median age of 29 and its explosive growth, raining praise on Patrick. Patrick, 36, is a former star high school athlete from Marion, Ill., who found himself in trouble one week in his junior year at Marion High. The self-described "party jock" had been bounced from the football team for drinking, suspended from school for fighting and believed his girlfriend was pregnant. ThatвЂ™s when Patrick turned to Jesus. At Southwest Baptist University in Bolivar, Patrick found he had a talent for talking to people about God. He noticed that members of some crowds - particularly athletes and artists - who were searching for spirituality didnвЂ™t connect with the traditional church structure. After Patrick received his masterвЂ™s of divinity at Midwest Baptist Seminary in Kansas City, his church there agreed to pay his salary for three years so that Patrick and his wife, Amie, could start The Journey. The couple didnвЂ™t know anyone in St. Louis, so Patrick spent months trawlingmic nights in Soulard for musicians and approaching strangers in coffeehouses to ask whether theyвЂ™d like to come to church in his basement. By late 2002, they had a core group of 30 members. By the end of 2003, the group had grown to 120. The congregation had moved to rented space at the Center of Clayton, then moved again to space at Hanley Road Baptist Church, also in Clayton. Membership doubled in each of the next three years. In December 2005, The Journey put down $425,000 to buy Holy Innocents Catholic Church, west of Tower Grove Park, for $1.65 million and spent another $500,000 to renovate the interior. Nearly half the down payment came from the Missouri Baptist Convention loan. Patrick and his congregation moved into their new church in May and have already outgrown it. Two packed Sunday morning services are supplemented with a Sunday evening service back at Hanley Road Baptist Church. Another Sunday morning service will begin in west St. Louis County next month. The Journey also starts, or "plants," new churches outside The Journey brand name. In September, it planted the Refuge Church in St. Charles; it is scouting sites in Illinois. Sense of belonging On a recent Sunday, 500 20-somethings, dressed in jeans and fleece jackets, carried Starbucks cups and dog-eared Bibles into The JourneyвЂ™s nave before the 11 a.m. service, greeting each other with hugs and handshakes. The music of Sufjan Stevens poured through the sound system as church notices flashed on the big screen above the sanctuary and the four wide-screen plasma monitors hanging above the pews. As the service began, a six-piece worship band played a few rousing tunes, and then Patrick, dressed in khakis and a brown sweater, began to preach. For an hour, Patrick cited Genesis, Proverbs, Ephesians and 1 Corinthians to drive home his message for this Sunday: Men like risk. Men need to be challenged, and a "less-than-masculine" church is doing little to challenge them. Men need to take responsibility for their lives, their families, their spiritual well-being. The goal of many pastors in emerging churches is to make Christianity relevant to young people. In his sermon, Patrick touched on a subject not often broached from a traditional pulpit, telling married men in his pews, "The hottest sex in St. Louis should be in your bedroom." Its leadersвЂ™ willingness to take on issues that directly relate to their lives attracts many young people to The Journey. "Younger people are looking for a sense of belonging," said church member Jason Froderman, 25. Patrick said all the Journey campuses were united in one mission: to serve the poor in the city of St. Louis. That work puts The Journey and the Missouri Baptist Convention on the same page, Patrick said. "We look at the Missouri Baptists as a group that wants to start churches and help the poor," he said. It was this common mission that led to the $200,000 from the Baptist organization, which Patrick said was an unsolicited loan. Despite opposition from some Missouri Baptists, Patrick said he would continue working with the organization. "When you partner with other people, you invite conflict," he said. "But if weвЂ™re both going in the same general direction, why not link arms?" WHAT NEXT A CHILD MOLESTING MINISTRY TO ATTRACT POTENTIAL ALTURNATIVE CONVERTS? Posts: \| \| Directory :
gf Member	posted On 5/22/2007 That article is the perfect example of consumerism today. People will buy anything. Just because someone mixed marketting with religion doesnt mean all religion is bad Wisenhimer lol. Thats like if a grocery store decided to sell food with naked cashier ladies then "all grocery stores are evil"? Thats backwards logic. Reductio Ad Absurdum. Youre thinking like the "Doom and gloomer" Chicken Littles you are. I can see Wisenhimer sitting there stuffing his lips with bacon and cheese triple burgers while his double chocolate brownies are cooling in the kitchen as he watches the final minutes of Survivor and downs his ice chilled Heinekin...thinking how bad things are and how badly things need to change lol. Is life really that bad? Posts: \| \| Directory :
Anton Member	posted On 5/22/2007 "Believe in god and have faith and all will be fine" "Is life really that bad?" Karl Marx once asserted, вЂњThe ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas, i.e., the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force.вЂќ Even a relatively cursory study of Western socioeconomic history and current events provides abundant evidence to substantiate MarxвЂ™s observation. Forged in a crucible of formidable indoctrination underscored by materialistic bribes enabled by usurious lending, seductive propaganda in the form of media and advertising, and illusory вЂњget richвЂќ opportunities, American Capitalism maintains an iron grip on the psyches of hundreds of millions of peopleвЂ”not only at home but around the globe. Blindly worshipping profits, money, and material вЂњsuccessвЂќ, we US Americans have plunged the United States into a moral abyss from which it is unlikely we will re-emerge. If we donвЂ™t implode due to our own decadence, the rest of the world will see to the demise of our bloody, exploitative, and barbaric empire. Wrestle free for at least a moment, if you can, from the catechism of free markets, deregulation, free trade, and the like. Now consider just a few characteristics of American Capitalism which guarantee that we, as its practitioners, will continue sinking deeper and deeper into the fetid cesspool of depravity and isolation that rules our everyday lives, even if we (at least many of us) remain largely oblivious to its daily exactions. Our system, which we have been inculcated to view through Panglossian lenses, rewards greed, selfishness, self-absorption, and hyper-individualism (four of the most repulsive aspects of human nature); necessitates that profits trump humanity, and demands perpetually futile efforts to fulfill an insatiable appetite for growth and expansion. If we in the United States had the courage to gaze upon our collective reflection in the mirror, we would shudder at the sight of a visage more grotesque than that of Dorian Gray. For a more realistic perspective on the вЂњownership classвЂќ in the United States, consider this segment from a report from Professor G. William Domhoff of the University of California at Santa Cruz: вЂњIn terms of types of financial wealth, the top one percent of households have 44.1% of all privately held stock, 58.0% of financial securities, and 57.3% of business equity. The top 10% have 85% to 90% of stock, bonds, trust funds, and business equity, and over 75% of non-home real estate. Since financial wealth is what counts as far as the control of income-producing assets, we can say that just 10% of the people own the United States of America.вЂќ http://www.bestcyrano.org/THOMASPAINE/?p=36 Posts: \| \| Directory :
Wisenhimer Member	posted On 5/22/2007 Yes gf the Devil wears prada. Right now Im wearing a Chaps (Poplo) button up oxford, Dickies carpenter shorts and white K-Swiss tennis shoes. Non of these brand name are advertised on network TV. I have beams from space on my Screen when its on. Gattin ready to jump in my 03 SUV and go to Starbucks and have a cup of $2.00 coffee as I send text messages in to the ether. The Devil wears brand names that his victoms cant afford. This makes his victoms want to be green; but insted they envy, and this gets them nihile. "Farries wear boots. You gotta believe me" Sincerly, Legion (We are Many) Posts: \| \| Directory :
Wisenhimer Member	posted On 5/22/2007 gf said: "These victims need to get back to the basics and simply do two things: 1.Believe in God (love) 2.Have faith(hope) There you go Wisenhimer. The answers to all your questions in 2 easy steps." YES THIS IS THE TEACHING OF THE CHURCH, BUT ONLY JESUS DID NOT TEACH WHAT THE "CHURCH" TEACHES. BUT YES YOU ARE AS BRAIN WASHED AS THEY COME DEFINE lOVE AND HOPE. THESE ARE ABSTRACT CHURCHY CONCEPTS FOR THE IGNORANT STERWARD (ONE WHO BLOWS THE CLERGY). Posts: \| \| Directory :
Erol Member	posted On 5/22/2007 gf, If you really believed in Love and Hope, you wouldn't be saying and acting the way you do. I tell many to always beware of those who actions are different than their words. No love or hope comes anywhere what you post or strive for. You don't even follow your own slogans. Erol Posts: \| \| Directory :
gf Member	posted On 5/23/2007 Ron, can you believe what people think these days? Heres a rundown: Anton thinks that free-market and "utopian" ideals should not be allowed because it is obviously the tools of evil. Wisenhimer thinks that Jesus (whether he existed or not) DIDNT TEACH ABOUT LOVE OR FAITH LOL. "Love" is God, and "faith" is our free-will to believe in whatever we want to believe in. One is the Eggman, the other is the Walrus ;) And Erol, lol, the best answer for him will always be lol. LOL. Comedy everyday.Thank-you, this stuff makes for good entertainment. Posts: \| \| Directory :
Wisenhimer Member	posted On 5/24/2007 But whats puzzling you is the nature of my game. oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh Tune in or tune out but if you dont tune yourself some one may tune you or you may simply get tuned suddenly by natural disastor. oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh Tune what you ask? Kundalinie risng I reply The Poles are a changen Posts: \| \| Directory :
Wisenhimer Member	posted On 5/29/2007 Imagine prisoners, who have been chained since their childhood deep inside a cave: not only are their limbs immobilized by the chains; their heads are chained as well, so that their gaze is fixed on a wall. Behind the prisoners is an enormous fire, and between the fire and the prisoners is a raised walkway, along which statues of various animals, plants, and other things are carried by people. The statues cast shadows on the wall, and the prisoners watch these shadows. When one of the statue-carriers speaks, an echo against the wall causes the prisoners to believe that the words come from the shadows. The prisoners engage in what appears to us to be a game: naming the shapes as they come by. This, however, is the only reality that they know, even though they are seeing merely shadows of images. They are thus conditioned to judge the quality of one another by their skill in quickly naming the shapes and dislike those who begin to play poorly. Suppose a prisoner is released and compelled to stand up and turn around. At that moment his eyes will be blinded by the sunlight coming into the cave from its entrance, and the shapes passing will appear less real than their shadows. The last object he would be able to see is the sun, which, in time, he would learn to see as that object which provides the seasons and the courses of the year, presides over all things in the visible region, and is in some way the cause of all these things that he has seen. (This part of the allegory, incidentally, closely matches Plato's metaphor of the sun which occurs near the end of The Republic, Book VI.)[1] Once enlightened, so to speak, the freed prisoner would not want to return to the cave to free "his fellow bondsmen," but would be compelled to do so. Another problem lies in the other prisoners not wanting to be freed: descending back into the cave would require that the freed prisoner's eyes adjust again, and for a time, he would be one of the ones identifying shapes on the wall. His eyes would be swamped by the darkness, and would take time to become acclimated. Therefore, he would not be able to identify shapes on the wall as well as the other prisoners, making it seem as if his being taken to the surface completely ruined his eyesight. GLASS'S MAKE YOUR EYES WORSE OVER TIME. THEY ARE MEERLY A TEMPLARARY FIX. bUT WAERING THE GLASSES MAKES THE EYESITE DETERIORATES MORE AND MORE OVER TIME. "LET THE DEAD BURRY THE DEAD" GET YOUR SELF BACK TO THE GARDEN AND THE TREE OF LIFE. Posts: \| \| Directory :