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A new Julius Caesar?
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Ron
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 posted
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3/12/2005
The following biography provokes some thought! Especially if you follow some lines of thought which have compared the life of Julius Caesar and Jesus Christ!
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia;
"Sir Julius Caesar (1557/58 - 18 April 1636), was an English judge and politician. He was born near Tottenham in Middlesex. His father was Caesar Adelmare an Italian physician to Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth, descended by the female line from the Dukes de Cesarini."
Note that is father was also named Caesar!, and was Italian!
"He was educated at Magdalen College, Oxford, and afterwards studied at the University of Paris, where in the year 1581 he was made a doctor of civil law."
It is also interesting that he was educated at "Magdalen College", could this place be were he might have met a girl named Mary, of Magdalen?
"Two years later he was awarded a similar degree at Oxford, and became doctor of the canon law. He represented Reigate, Bletchingley and Windsor in Parliament. He held many high offices during the reigns of Elizabeth and James I, including a judgeship of the admiralty court (1584), a mastership in chancery (1588), treasurer of the Inner Temple in 1593 and a mastership of the court of requests (1595)."
He became "treasurer of the Inner Temple in 1593', how interesting since Jesus spent much of his time in or near the Temple!, and even had his famous run in with the money changers of the Temple! The temple mentioned is also somewhat of a mysterious feature of London, with many persons of the though that it was one of the hiding places of a hidden ruling elite, that has existed for centuries, possibly related to the mysterious Knights Templar!
"He was knighted at Greenwich by King James in May of 1603, and became Chancellor and Under Treasurer of the Exchequer 1606-1614. In 1614 was appointed Master of the Rolls, an office which he held till his death in 1636. His manuscripts, many of which are now in the British Museum, were sold by auction in 1757 for a sum of around ВЈ500.
His eldest son (also Julius Caesar) was sent to Padua to study at the university. He was wounded whilst fencing with Antonia Brochetta and sought revenge. He lay in wait for him with a pistol, but his shot missed. He then fell while attempting to draw his sword and was set upon by Brochetta who ran him through and killed him."
A fitting end to the family history. The roman Julius Caesar also reported had a son named Julius who has been mentioned by some as the Julius born by being cut from his mother's womb! And the son Julius was also stabbed and killed!, all the while planning his own treachery! Amazingly he was killed by a man named Antonia/Anthony! A number of correlations seem to exist here, or is it just dumb luck?
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Ron
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posted
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3/7/2005
A little historical follow up to the above post;
Source: A Second Jacobean Journal-Being a Record of Those Things Most Talked of During the Years 1607 to 1610. by George B. Harrison, Univ. of Michigan Press, 1958. Page Feb. 1608:
"14th. M. Julius Caesar, Sir Julius Caesar's son, a young man of 18 years, has been slain at Padua where he was a student. He used to frequent the fencing school of BARTHOLOMEO TAGLIAFERRO. Here he engaged in a bout with a pupil of the school, one Antonia Brochetta, and overcame him.
Brochetta then challenged him again, but contrary to useage attacked most vehemently and wounded M. Caesar in the left hand, who then threw his dagger at Brochetta, but missed him. On hearing Caesar's complaints, the master of the school came out and told him never to come to his school again. So he went away and found an English doctor, who with much ado staunched the blood. Next morning Caesar comes early to the University, armed with sword and pistol, when he encounters Brochetta coming out of Tagliaferro's house with sword and buckler. Caeser shot at him with his pistol but missed; but as he was trying to draw his sword he fell.
Whereupon Brochetta was upon him and thrust him through. Caesar rose, walked two paces, and fell dead. Others say that the pistol was discharged by accident from beneath his cloak which is pierced and burnt. The English students in Padua sent in great indignation to Venice to Sir Henry Wotton, the King's Ambassador, demanding the arrest of Brochetta, and complaining that although by order of the Podesta M. Caesar was given a public funeral in the church of S. Catherine, yet afterwards the body was taken up again and buried elsewhere because the clergy would not allow the body of a Protestant to remain in holy ground. On hearing the news the Venetian Ambassador here went to Sir Julius to condole with him on the death of his son; to whom Sir. Julius acknowledged the exceeding rashness of the
young man, for which reason he had sent him out of England to Padua where he hoped he would have acquired learning and good manners."
p. 410
" Sir Julius Caesar, 1558-1636, son of Caesar Adelmare, physician to Queen Elizabeth, a native of Treviso, in the Venetian territory. Sir Julius Caesar was Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1606, Master of the Rolls 1614. His third wife was a granddaughter of Sir Nicholas Bacon (D. N. B.). He sent his eldest surviving son, Julius, on account of his "excessive vivacity" to absorb learning and manners at the University of Padua. The young man was wounded by Brochetta in fencing; lay in wait for him with a pistol, fired at him and missed, and falling in drawing his sword, Brochetta ran him through and
killed him."
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denikin
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posted
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3/7/2005
Perhaps the original ? Nice detective work !
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Tom
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posted
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3/7/2005
LOL
OK, clearly you secretly think revised history is a joke and as you are the guys who are promoting it you should know. But I thought you guys were supposed to be fans of Scaliger?
This is his father.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13506a.htm
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Roin
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posted
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3/7/2005
Thanks for reacting Tom! Yes we all know of J. C. Scaglier, and his reknown? It is funny is it not?, that the CAtholic Encyclopedia gives very little credit to anything the man did? Instead of any word of praise all you get is a big essay about his faults as well as his violent attacks on Erasmus.
It is funny just how the same encyclopedia treats Erasmus.
It says, in part; "The literary works issued by Erasmus up to this time made him the intellectual father of the Reformation. What the Reformation destroyed in the organic life of the Church Erasmus had alreadyy or covertly subverted in a moral sense in his "Praise of Folly", his "Adagia", and "Colloquia", by his pitiless sarcasm or by his cold scepticism."
So old Erasmus was also not much liked by the Chruch!
The real question is, was this just because these men disliked the Church of their day? Or did they really perform great service to their lords?
Ron
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denikin
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posted
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3/8/2005
re. Scaliger : please see the book by Vlad & Grishin when it comes out for an appraisal of his influence.
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Calgacus Ynot Clausewitz
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posted
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3/8/2005
Does anybody know when Twelve Caesars by Suetonious was "dicovered" or discovered?
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yax
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posted
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3/8/2005
About Svetonius: once I read about cucumbers that Octavian the Emperor liked to chew while drinking his wine, I felt that Octavian was biding his time in the 15th c.
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Calgacus
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posted
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3/8/2005
Yax-
I do remember your thoughts about Roman emperors eating cucumbers from a post about one year ago. The reason I ask for the dates of the said 12 Caesars is that if it was discovered before Julius Caesar Scaliger lived or even half way through his lifetime, then the chances are he is not the "original."
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yax
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posted
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3/9/2005
About Suetonius: the first pinted edition dates back to 1470 (Rome) & 1471 (Venice). Later his book was re-edited & commented by several people including Erasmus (Basel, 1518). And the best manuscript was kept by Henri de Mesmer in the 16th c. (Now it is called Codex Parisinus 6115). The fist hint about Suetonius as a real person appeared in 1950...
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Calgacus
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posted
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3/10/2005
Yax- Thanks.
Ron-
Now I can answer your question:
"A fitting end to the family history. The roman Julius Caesar also reported had a son named Julius who has been mentioned by some as the Julius born by being cut from his mother's womb! And the son Julius was also stabbed and killed!, all the while planning his own treachery! Amazingly he was killed by a man named Antonia/Anthony! A number of correlations seem to exist here, or is it just dumb luck?"
Just dumb luck.
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denikin
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posted
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3/10/2005
"Once is an accident. Twice is a coincidence. The third time is a pattern."
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yax
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posted
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3/11/2005
And four times or more make a system.
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Calgacus, whY NOT Clausewitz?
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posted
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3/11/2005
Nonetheless, it is at least (in my opinion) to everyone here worthwhile to expose the ones that are just dumb luck, so that they do not accumulate and discredit the theory. My only other question is, (just to play devil's advocate) how many more are there?
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yax
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posted
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3/12/2005
There's a lot. Chemistry, music, epidemiology, communications, demography etc. If people heal themselves of blindness & deafness. Otherwise there'll be total "chipness".
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denikin
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posted
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3/12/2005
A little more devil's advocacy seems called-for here. Everyone will recall the story of the blind men and the elephant - leaf, tree trunk, snake, wall &c. It is better not to be too premature with evaluations of the significance (or otherwise) of data.
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Ron
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posted
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3/12/2005
A little background on the fencing teacher of Julius, Jr.;
This information is from a family history site and I cannot vouch that the information contained therein is correct. Ron
"The Tagliaferro family were originally from Genoa, Italy and were a family of very successful traders throughout the Mediterranean and the Black sea.
The "TAGLIAFERRO" family of Malta descend from the Parma branch of the "TAGLIAFERRI" of Parma and Genoa, Italy. Their genealogy is found in the works of Crescenzio and Aralci. ANTONIO TAGLIAFERRI of Parma (circa 1477) aided the Princess of Pallavicinis, Cantelli of Parma and Scolti of Piacenza who settled in Genoa. ANTONIO had a child:- GABRIELE TAGLIAFERRI (1502) a poet and founded a fencing school in Viterbo. We then go to:- SIMON OF GENOVA 1750 Founded a merchant shipping line. Had children who settled in Malta."
The above is obviously the history of the family who spelled its name Tagliaferro or Tagliaferri. This of course may not be the only way to spell the name. Other versions are Talliferro, Tollifer, etc. The next family history account is;
"" In the A Short History of the English People, by John Green, 1916, page 145, the following is found regarding the Battle of Hastings:
"A general charge of the Norman footd the battle, in front rode the minstrel TAILLEFER, tossing his sword in the air and catching it again while he chanted the song of Roland. He was the first of the host who struck a blow, and the first to fall."
In the Outlines of Mediaeval and Modern History, by P.V.N Myers, published in 1897, page 173, the following is found regarding the Battle of Hastings. (It will be noted that the knight is not mentioned by name.):
"With the morning the battled -- the battle that was to determine the fate of England. It was begun by a horseman riding out from the Norman lines and advancing along toward the English Army, tossing up his sword and skillfully catching it as it fell, and singing all the while the stirring battle-song of Charlemagne and Roland. The English watched with astonishment this exhibition of 'Careless dexterity,' and if they did not contrast the vivacity and nimbleness of the Norman foe with their own heavy and clumsy manners, others at least have not failed to do so for them."
From the above we can see that it is well recorded in history that the Norman warrior, called Taillefer, was the hero of the Battle of Hastings (sometimes known as the Battle of Senlac), but that he died in the battle and did not live to enjoy his fame, nor did he live to establish the large Taillefer (or Taliaferro) family as the stories have credited to him. It also appears that he had the name before he arrived in England.
We can now see that we had the name as early as 1066 but that we are still without an origin of the original name of Taillefer. We will now examine the known facts, as recorded in history, of this name and see how the name came to be in England.
In the year 866 King Charles le Chauve (Charles the Bald), of France, created the independent country of Angouleme and made Vulgrin (one of his kinsmen) the first Count of Angouleme. This was in the days of feudalism, or the feudal systems, when the King would parcel out sections of his kingdom to others.
These sections given to others were known as "Fiefs" or "feuds" (sometimes counties) and each fief was a kingdom within itself and responsible only to the king. Count Vulgrin, 1st Count of Angouleme (reigned 866-886), was the first of a long line of counts that extended into the 13th century.
Guillaume I, the 3rd Count of Angouleme (reigned 916-975), came by the name of "TAILLEFER" (the first of the name) as a result of a battle with a Norman chief, Stonius. He is credited with "during battle he cleaved from head to foot the body and armor of Stonius."
Regardless of the reason Count Guillaume came by the name of Taillefer, he is the first that history records to have the name. This name meant Clever of Iron, Cutter of Iron, or, Iron Cutter. These meanings are based on the following words and their meanings:
Taille, from the French Tailler, meaning to cut or divide; Latin Taliare, said to come from Talia (as in Taliaferro). In the Middle Ages the word taille also meant a French tax. (See the Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th edition, Vol. XXVI, page 368.)
Aymer de Taillefer, the 14th Count of Angouleme (reigned 1185-1217), married Alix de Joigny (Lady Alice de Courtney), and they had an only daughter named Isabelle Taillefer.
Isabbelle Taillefer, when an infant, had been betrothed to her infant cousin, Hugh de Lusignan X. On August 26th, 1200 the wedding of these two (who had grown of age) was about to take place at St. Cybard Abbey, near Angouleme. King John, of England, was a guest at the wedding and was so taken in by the great beauty of Isabelle Taillefer, the bride-to-be, that he kidnapped her and compelled the Bishop of Angouleme to marry him and Isabelle in the church where the guests were already assembled and waiting for the ceremony between Isabelle and Hugh X.""
The above information may not be really related to this conversation, but it is an interesting side light.
Regards,
Ron
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